Frogs and Capitalism 101 - Why we are going to 0 / Cost of Ragequit / Buyback

[hynex07]

Hi all,
I will cover 3 things :

• Why we are going to 0 due to “communist party” talk
• What it would cost treasury to allow a full arb by whales once we allow “ragequit” or “redemption at backing”
• Can we be that whale and lose 0 ?

PART 1 - Communist party anti-whale sentiment is getting us nowhere.

I have observed the events of the last few days, and i’ve observed a quite strange phenomenon. A lot of people seem to be against people who bought below backing making money because they themselves bought higher, or some basic anti-whale talk with little substance.
This is truly a novel concept and thinking is so basic that i feel weird having to explain it.

For the price to go up, you need buyers, and if price goes up, people who bought low make money. That’s how it works.
You can’t ask for people to buy your token to make it go up, and at the same time try to find ways to confiscate their money. They are not going to come.
Noone outside of frogs cares about frogs, the market won’t do charity to us.
We are left on our own now, there is ZERO new money that will come until we fix this issue.
We are going to dump forever until price is so low that new buyers just buy 51% of vote and take the treasury anyway.
That’s literally what happens to countries that start voting laws to confiscate foreigners capital “because foreigner are richer and can buy cheap here”. Investment stops and the country collapses, then mercenaries come and loot it.

PART 2 - Cost estimate of ragequit / arbs.
Let’s assume we announce that treasury buys back at backing. Let’s imagine a big fat whale then comes and buys all the wMEMO possible until price reaches backing.
Everyone makes money, but this whale will basically make “free money” out of treasury, how much exactly ?
Let’s examine sushiswap pool, as of now you need around 6.2m$ of MIM to buy wMEMO and push price to backing of 36,500$ (let’s assume this is the number, and full math at the bottom)
This gives you ~235 wMEMO, that you can instantly exchange for backing value of 36,500 using ragequit option. You would then recieve 8.6m$, making a profit of ~2.4m$, which is 0.35% of the treasury.
So these “whales” will cost us 0.35% to fix the whole problem, and move on with our lives and building the project. This is a very small price in the grand scheme of things.
Now let’s estimate how much money might actually leave. Snapshot vote had ~ 95k TIME Yes
Backing at 36500 per wMEMO is roughly equivalent to 560 backing per TIME. 560 x 95k = 53m$
Assuming everyone there leaves, we lose less than 10% of treasury.This doesn’t endanger in any way the project. Now the more this shitshow continues; the more people lose faith and the worse the outcome will be.

Part 3 - Can we do it ourselves ?
This is the even better part. Treasury has a gigantic pile of money, much more than 6m$.
If we just allow ragequit + buyback 6-7m$ of wMEMO using the treasury MIM (it has more than 35m$ of MIM).
Then we fix the problem, there is no arb to be made anymore, and ragequit can be allowed.

So can we please just stop this anti-whale bullshit ? It costs us almost nothing in the worst case, and nothing if we execute a buyback at same time.
What we cannot do, is prevent anyone who already bought as of now to make money once price goes up. They already bought and are taking the risk of further collapse (like whats happening now) So if price goes up, everyone benefits. Telling new buyers they can’t make money “because they are not diamond hand buyers from 1000 years ago” is the best way to get ZERO buyer. The market is not a charity and doesn’t for how long you held or how much you lost. So can we be a bit more rational to make back some money instead of losing it all ?

Math : Sushi pool is a constant product AMM with
844.5 wMEMO / 16,063,240 MIM - Price 19,021
Using target new price of 36,500 and constant product formula.
New_MIM = SQRT ( 844.5 x 16,063,240 x 36,500) = 22,251,681
So net buying pressure required = 22,251,681 - 16,063,240 = +6,188,641
At which point the pool will become made of :
609.63 wMEMO / 22,251,681 MIM - Price 36,500

[woody]

Well said. I think the alternative method of removing the LP and having a 48hour rage quit redemption window at the same time would similarly fix the issue as well.

[crypto-mat]

Agree this needs to stop, even frogs would regain some trust seeing price go higher and maybe like this most of them wouldn’t even exit. Need to be freedom here not comunism. The only way, also people are aggressive/fanatic on discord. We need to keep promises, unless even more frogs will give up and take the loss.

[kbanna]

This is great! Can you please add a poll at the end of the proposal with 3 choices? Example below:

• Agree - Allow market only rage quit
• Agree - Allow mix of buybacks and market rage quit
• Disagree with any form of rage quit

[Nimrod]

I agree if this include whom where liquidated below backing price. It was a promise of the ex CFO to do it.

[froglok]

While I think you have a good post and made some good points; re: whales, let’s not forget that most likely a majority of people have an anti-whale sentiment because of the price manipulation they do to tokens like these, you can see it has happened across most if not all rebase DAO’s over the past couple of months. THAT is harmful in nature to a project, not the fact that whales want to participate or have more money, but the fact that some of them coordinate attacks, manipulate the price (which would most likely be illegal in tradfi) and trigger liquidiation cascades, hurting others for their own gain (and likely a small gain to big wallets like that).

Whales with lots of money who want to invest and make more money, sure, whatever, it’s the same as us, they just have more money to work with.

But the whales that actively and aggressively go out there to coordinate attacks, manipulate the price and trigger liquidiation cascades, now those are just bad actors, plain and simple.

THEN on top of that, they deliberately bought up more before our voting process started so that they could force the project to shut down and take more of a share of the treasury if/when an exit option was presented. The whole point of the voting system the way it is now, is so that those who honestly invested more money into the project would have more weight, not so that those who bought in last minute with lots of money could destroy our project and take more than their honest fair share of the treasury.

Watching the events unfold as they did, it was clear the intention of these whales was not just to make a profit, but to destroy us in the process and even harm others who had leveraged positions (and no, I am not one of the ones who leveraged and got liquidated). This is malicious in nature, and just wrong in my eyes, but that’s just my two cents /shrug.

Wonderland was never meant to be a get rich quick scheme, however it has been used that way primarily by the bad whales and it has contributed to us getting to where we are now.

It WILL leave a sour taste in peoples mouths. I don’t put all whales in the same boat; but any who do wrong are just bad, whether you’re a tadpole, frog, whale or shark.

[merlin]

Good post 100% agree.

Hopefully frogs get more educated and can figure out how to have a better outlook considering our options are fairly good…

Other projects do not have this sort of treasury to add real value.

[Bholy777]

Yes, we all understand there’s risk in terms of investment. Market volatility is understandable.
However, this is not the case. Then why the long-term holders are intitled to their initial investment?

1. The founder and development team admitted that this OHM Fork Wonderland project was an experiment failure because the original purpose of the project was mainly for fund raising. The high APY was designed as a gamification to attract investors to build the treasury not sustainable long-term.
2. The treasury was derived from the long-term holder’s contributions (initial investment) .
3. They are intitled to receive their initial contributions because Wonderland project no longer can fulfill its original promise but simply a gamification for falsely infeasible long-term hope.

Therefore, the early adopters are intitled to claim their initial investment and no reason to absorb the loss due to project errors.

[retirement]

@Bholy777

Therefore, the early adopters are intitled to claim their initial investment and no reason to absorb the loss due to project errors.

Absolutely, that is the only honest way forward.

[Danielolteanu]

Finally we have someone that makes some fuckin sense here…
All this Communism must stop. You’re here for Money $,£,€, ¥ or whatever .If you bought at 10k Time and now you’re crying.
Stop this Professor madness can you see this is a Gay Communist attack to the fundamentals of CRYPTO?
Don’t broke the promise of the APY and rebases on the Compound interest. This is our reward by being early adopters of Time ok?
Take the market Hit as I put it simple.
I put 8k initially ,went 7k down now I’m+1 K up and so on. If someone’s speaks my language will know what I’m on about. Things go down as well go up and down. I’m here to trade this is an open trade to me there’s no losses no earnings is cumulative stage I’m building my Crypto up then trade, fuckin arbitrage
Selling now buy low sell high buy back low keep the trade flow take and take whatever market gives you
You’re here for adrenaline for that feeling when you see the green candles going crazily up that makes all your blood flow rise when this happening . This is Crypto trade
A you want your shite staking 1-2% oh the APY is so bad , dilution and shite like this.
Ain’t fuckin bad wasn’t when Cake started with 2 cents and now is like 20 bucks, wasn’t for CRO,or others projects which basically offered the same thing.
All we need is fine tunes.
Burning rate +reduccing supply as price grows and supply descrease yes this is normal, natural, gradually.
All people have the right to pull out.These coins must be burned in certain amount.
I totally disagree removing APY now gave up rebases and all this Communism makes me wonder how stupid are those that keep sustain this nonsense