Why is this being voted on here? when all voting happens snapshot.org and no communication was published on twitter seems the mods are being sneaky trying to push this forward.
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No mod is trying to be sneaky. This is an informal vote. Polls are included in the RFC template, which is the last step before moving to WIP and being voted on snapshot.
I encourage you to become more familiar with the current Governance Framework:
https://medium.com/the-defi-wonderland/wonderland-governance-framework-25b8792ecc8
As for Twitter, we do not have the ability to post on Twitter. The General Discussion was posted there a few days ago, and the official vote should be too.
You raise a fair point, and on my side, the 2 weeks was roughly the time box I figured would be necessary in order to pass a renewal budget in this context. I would assume this initial budget proposal on mod compensation would be the longest one to get approval for - as typically renewals are much more straightforward in practice.
I firmly believe that itās in the best interest of the DAO to have end dates set for any roles the DAO decides to pay for (Mod team, TM, etc.). This gives the DAO an opportunity to negotiate some finer details come the time to renew. This should typically be expected in any situation where youāre working with a service provider. This is effectively what should be happening now that the current mod team will be transitioning from voluntary support to paid service providers.
The way this relationship will work going forward is complicated, as in a traditional business setup thereās an authorized individual who is permitted to negotiate with the service providers (typically a vendor manager of sorts), whereas with the DAO, there are 1000ās of voices who are involved in this process. Naturally, the democratic structure of the DAO is great and facilitates healthy debate on a slew of ideas that your typical investor will never have visibility on. The counter-point to this is that thereās a strong bias towards inertia in this structure (example being the number of proposals making it to RFC, WIP and DAO Vote). Change and evolution require effort, debate, and alignment, but maintaining the status quo requires none of the above.
To oblige the community to be an active participant in this process (as in - sharing feedback and commenting on the renewal budgets as we approach contractual end dates), to me, is the only way to avoid the default preference to maintaining the status quo. Alternatively, the community could elect a representative to act on their behalf in negotiations, as well as other operational activities in WL, but thatās a discussion for another day.
This need could be seen as even more important considering the mods have strong relationships within the community. Many members of this community will be voting yes and no for emotional reasons, which is the wrong way to approach business decisions. People are less likely to vote against people they care about, just as much as they will vote against something they donāt believe brings value without looking at the facts.
I was under the impression that weāre in the process of ironing out the finer details prior to evolving this to the WIP, isnāt part of the purpose of the RFC for gathering community feedback to improve the idea?
Respectfully, I must disagree with the above statement. If weāre running with a proposal and have the intention of starting to work on a better one to address the gaps of an existing proposal - I would argue that pushing forward the current proposal is in fact the definition of rushing it. The DAO isnāt commenting on this proposal from the standpoint that this offer has an expiration date (if thatās not right, please let me know). If we need to continue discussing some of the points to get it right the first time, thatās what should be done here. (This would be different if we were already in the DAO vote stage, but there are still steps before that point.)
I think we can all agree that the Sifu removal vote was quite an extreme case. Itās unlikely something similar should transpire relating to the mod team. (For the sake of WL, I hope not lol).
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The way I see it, some of the points you raise are convincing me not to put an end date 
Your arguments about inertia and how much effort is required for change vs status quo means that the amount of work required once that deadline comes to discuss, debate and plan may be too much work to be able to meet the deadline when the time comes. Or, people wonāt care enough and pass it because they prefer status quo. This was essentially what I meant by two weeks is not enough and shooting ourselves in the foot by going on that route right away.
While I do essentially agree that it is like hiring a service provider, I see this proposal more like hiring your family member help your new buisiness get off the ground. You hire them to do basic stuff at first, and you adjust while your business grows.
Wonderlandās DAO has essentially been a ship without a captain. Riding the waves of the port, but not really going anywhere. Telling it when it needs to be back before even knowing where itās going or how itās going to get there is poor navigation.
Engaging the DAO to be active participants is exactly what we are trying to do. We donāt need an end date to gather the DAOās feedback on the work we do or how we could do things better. With regular reporting we can see what works, what doesnāt and work from there.
Thatās what I meant by, passing the proposal and start another one. I didnāt mean literally right after passing this one have a new one to make this one better, but rather push this structure through, evaluate what works what doesnāt, have the mod adapt what they can and vote things that should be voted on. This DAO is far from being dormant. We simply donāt have anyone to open the flood gates, yet.
Thatās your prerogative. All I can do is try and highlight how this is in the best interest of the DAO.
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Iām very delighted to see this discussion being fleshed out. There are many good reasons to get this structure on the books ASAP and take advantage of some of the more solid communication it should bring. I understand this is just our start. We fully intend to build upon things that work within it and get rid of some things that donāt work. It will take some time working with this structure in order for the community to get some good first hand experience with it.
There are many in the community who are quite smart, and they make the connection between customer service agents and a discord mod here in Wonderland, but that connection is likely a misconception. There may indeed be many areas where the two overlap in needs, responsibilities, success metrics, etc. But this is a bit of new territory and we will need to do some experimenting to find what works best for an Investment Firm style DAO of our size. This proposal is a great step toward getting into that experiment.
I personally see the need for an expiration date to it as well. All the things that are discussed here about the pros and cons to inserting an expiration date are all good points. One thing that keeps sticking out to me though, is that one of the responsibilities of the mods in this structure will be to facilitate the kind of discussion that breaks from the status quo in an informed manner for the community - thatās literally our job. Every challenge that may arise in the event we are up against an expiration date, are legitimate challenges we should be tackling anyway - and a Lack of an expiration date simply makes that Easier for us. Iām not here for easy, frankly.
I am all for getting that structured communication in place right now, but I donāt see any of the cons in having a predetermined expiration date as a true hinderance to this goal. Knowing that date up front, makes it that much more clear to everyone - mods and community alike - that we need to ensure weāre staying on top of this the whole time to beat that deadline. As it is worded today, it simply isnāt clear enough that we fully expect to revamp this at some point. The addition of that verbiage as well as an expiration date would make it extraordinarily clear to anyone debating this, that we are trying to establish something today, but we acknowledge that this will be a process.
I think the Senior Moderator having the authority to make alterations to the responsibilities of any mod as well as the mods who get paid, throughout the duration of this initiative, is a great way to ensure everyone knows this is an evolving process. I donāt imagine that would detract from the need for an expiration date. I also imagine all the schemes of controlling the flow of funds are too complicated - Senior Mod can handle all that. The deadline simply affirms that we have a set period of time to use as metric for evaluation, that we have planned ahead and given Ourselves a deadline. It could even be beneficial to establish ahead of time, a monthly roundup to discuss the progress with the community and whatās been working well or hasnāt so far. This wouldnāt be another evaluation period with a vote each month, itās just us planning ahead to set designated times aside in the future to discuss this. Itās adding structure to this structure. We canāt fear the challenges this would bring, we need to prepare for them and overcome them as we create the best possible scenario.
In short: Donāt stall This initiative. Iām in team Deadline. Keep the fire burning under our asses to get this sorted throughout the process. No need to re-evaluate every 3-6 months continuously, but if we Know this structure will need to evolve and then finally come to a more solid structure after a period of experimentation - letās label the end date of this experiment and not debate that date later. Maybe we come to that date and find everything here works great and thereās minimal changes needed. Great, then weāll have spent those three months affirming that with solid first hand experience. We cut the expiration date off that new proposal in three months and pass it - or even have it established within This WIP that it can simply rollover into a permanent structure if we fail as community shepards and canāt get the community hyped around that second vote in three months. I simply canāt get behind the idea that we should fear the difficulty in wrangling the community around growth, especially when we are discussing the structure of how to wrangle the community around growth.
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A BIG NO, this isnāt the right time, First build revenue and add value to the investors ,then get a treasury manager and finally begin the process of planning mod compensation based on performance and professionalism. for mods, stop being sneaky and try to get the money and stop posting mod compensation stuff here which doesnāt add any value to investors!!!
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Again, no mods are trying to be sneaky. Dani has been talking about it for months and asked us in Discordās general chat to write this proposal a few days before the General Discussion (which was also posted on Twitter).
No one is trying to hide anything or be sneaky.
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Wait, you have posted 15 times this entire month. Thatās an 8-12 hour work day???
No question. I will always defend against that kind of nonsense from people. The mods are doing the best they can to get us in the best possible position for stability and growth. I speak to IsThatLowFat quite a bit, and I can assure you that they have no misconception about the mods desire to do whatās best for the community and that none of you are being sneaky. There is a great desire from many intelligent and dedicated minds here to do the best thing for the community and our growth.
Many ideas and questions pertaining to this proposal would be beneficial for us to break down and bring to a further structured arrangement for those keeping our discord operating efficiently - after we get this initiative Activated and Running. We need this in action ASAP, thatās not much of a question. We know weāll be building on this structure and evaluating its gears throughout the process. I think that verbiage added to the proposal will help stifle much pushback, where many may assume this is the deal weāre locking in. it could be beneficial to simple state that this is our start, and we are going to use This process to help us better recognize the benefits of the deal, together as a community throughout this initial experiment.
An expiration date (with a rollover to permanence clause), would both help secure the understanding that this is a process and it will maintain the fire under our asses to keep the experiment in focus the whole time. I brought up the monthly scheduled evaluation discussions because adding dates like that now into the proposal gives users time to schedule that into their lives. It also helps us avoid the āwen evaluationā questions.
I know this is a difficult situation for you all to manage, you have my support and the support of most of the community. I can assure you that there are many in the community who are excited to help flesh out the experiment with you throughout the process to ensure we have a solid package to bring to the community when the time comes to lock in a more permanent discord management structure. The mods all work extremely hard and itās no question that you have the best interests of the community at the forefront of your minds. Iām sorry if any questioning or dissecting of this proposal has made any of you feel like the community doesnāt appreciate the mods in this list or that we believe any of you hold nefarious intent.
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I would take a professional marketing team over the current mods and below are the reasons.
1 They are professionals and do this for a living.
2 They are well versatile and know the game.
3 They bring a good image and respect to the project.
4 They will have a fresh start and high expectations will be expected.
5 There will be a professional environment and no favorites or unprofessional behavior.
6 Lower cost to the dao as 25k a month is too much
7 There will already be a structure and standard they normally follow.
These are just some of the reasons why we must consider hiring a marketing team. It is in the best interest of all holders to start fresh, and that means getting rid of the old and bringing in professionals that do this for a living. The negative perception some mods carry and their questionable behavior hurt the image of the Dao. Having a professional marketing team would be the best option, and of course, the mods want to get paid, but we must look into the projectās best interest. We need a full restructuring starting with the leader, Daniel, as he has shown he is not the leader we need to be successful. The negative image the project carries needs to change, and the mods arenāt going to change that. The mods can still be active and their contributions have not gone unnoticed, but we need professionals.
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I would take a professional marketing team over the current mods and below are the reasons.
1 They are professionals and do this for a living.
2 They are well versatile and know the game.
3 They bring a good image and respect to the project.
4 They will have a fresh start and high expectations will be expected.
5 There will be a professional environment and no favorites or unprofessional behavior.
6 Lower cost to the dao as 25k a month is too much
7 There will already be a structure and standard they normally follow.
These are just some of the reasons why we must consider hiring a marketing team. It is in the best interest of all holders to start fresh, and that means getting rid of the old and bringing in professionals that do this for a living. The negative perception some mods carry and their questionable behavior hurt the image of the Dao. Having a professional marketing team would be the best option, and of course, the mods want to get paid, but we must look into the projectās best interest. We need a full restructuring starting with the leader, Daniel, as he has shown he is not the leader we need to be successful. The negative image the project carries needs to change, and the mods arenāt going to change that. The mods can still be active and their contributions have not gone unnoticed, but we need professionals. Also mods donāt just ignore this comment like you have to my past 2 comments.
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I would have to say the lower part of your comment makes me feel like this probably isnāt the right project for you. If you donāt like anything about it and feel it needs to be burned from the inside out - then you clearly want something that this is not. I, as someone who recognizing Daniās progress in the rebuilding phase so far and have great admiration for the effort that the mods put forward through thick and thin of our history, think that we have a pretty good leader with Dani right now and that These mods are probably our best bet to work out this experiment with. I think by addressing some of your points, I could bring some substance to why I personally feel itās better to keep this in-house.
Before I go one by one though, I want to touch on a couple things. We had a professional discord manager getting paid before. When Sifugate happened, who do you think quit immediately? Who do you think stood up to take on those responsibilities without pay this whole time, sometimes paying out of pocket to keep things running? That previously paid strictly professional discord management team, is the one who quit. The mods on the list and some that are not, the non-professional Wonderland Community Members stood up. This brings me to another point.
Why would we Want to pay an outside organization to do something that we can pay our own family to maintain? It is my personal goal to build an entire marketing and media empire within wonderland for public outreach, paying any frog that involves them self in the process. Sure, we could hire an outside firm, but why? Let me give you my personal thoughts on each of the points you bring up.
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Those professionals require good money for good work. We donāt need some people to just timeout users for bad language or ban scammers - the mods develop informative material for the community every day and explain the various aspects of the project to people who donāt understand the docs or material available. The mods help users navigate the discord to even be able to utilize the material they create. The mods help provide substance to the conversations as they are Investors and have a desire to understand their investment alongside those they provide support to. āCustomer Serviceā is something that we could get from a third party, but I highly doubt thatās what we actually want. We need something more than support from people who donāt really care about our success.
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If you want a team that is well versed in Crypto and āthe gameā, then we are going to be paying Way more than $25k a month for mods. Why would someone who really knows the crypto game not play the crypto game instead of being a discord mod for a couple grand a month? Any third party discord moderation group will be versed in practices related to the moderation of discord, thatās it. They wouldnāt even be expected to have an understanding of Wonderland, let alone āthe gameā.
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How can we guarantee this new team would bring Anything to our community. That is an assumption that a new car smell is in any way beneficial to the automobile. At best, they would appear non-existent and ensure nothing changes - itās not the goal of āprofessional moderatorsā to push for growth and excitement. Itās their job to ban people and not let people say bad words. In my opinion, community member, investor Mods are even more incentivized to push for whatās best for the community. The better they do, the better our community looks, the easier experience investors have with our product, the more valuable our assets are due to that ease of experience compared to competitors, the more the mods benefit. There can be a direct correlation, although extremely small, between our asset value and the effort put in by the mods.
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With high expectations come high price tags. If weāre trying to save money by outsourcing, weāll need to lower our expectations or prepare for failure. That leads me to consider the likelihood that we donāt like our new mods and have to start all over. If that occurs, weāre back to square one. Weāve had a lot of time to get to know the mods weāre working with, they have a lot to show for their worth already. Yes, the paycheck helps, but theyāre all investors too, not just some random discord mod who could care less about our success further than their next paycheck.
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There are no favorites now. There are those who have been immensely helpful to the community in various ways. There are those who have provided that help for longer periods of time, including through our darkest hours. Those mods happen to be the ones on this list. If I had to make a bet that there would be a good group to figure this out with, it would probably be the most hard tested mods we have on the shelf.
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Weāve discussed the reasons I believe if we outsource it would likely be More expensive as well as if we wanted to save money how that would have to diminish our expectations and plan for failure.
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Lastly, that structure, to me, is likely the biggest thing that we will suffer from. We arenāt your average, run of the mill discord. There will be some experimentation throughout this process to find what works best for Us.
If we want Better from outsourcing, plan to pay more. If we want to save money, plan to get less. I strongly believe we should try to keep everything in the family, it keeps us aligned throughout every level of our organization. I can understand your frustrations, weāve all been figuring this out together since our last Paid Mods wouldnāt maintain the community through our rough time and decided to quit - leaving it to the mods in this list to figure it with the rest of us.
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I agree a marketing team would be nice, but this isnāt a proposal to hire a marketing team. Plus, @MattMacGyver seems to have it covered.
Not sure what you mean here ? I replied to your last comment.
https://dao.wonderland.money/t/rfc-wonderland-moderator-compensation/17115/76
I can provide an immediate example to why I feel it is so vital that the mods are also investors - I am a mod and NalX is a mod. I am not on that list, NalX is on that list. I know that I can have conversations about this proposal and others with NalX, debates even, and have Certainty that they are in no way going to appease me to keep things calm and ārunning smoothlyā, which would be the goal of a professional mod team. The Mods should not be here to maintain order, but to facilitate growth and understanding within the community - which can only be incentivized to an investor.
I would not expect an average moderator to engage in discussion in the way investor mods will. I anticipate average moderators putting in the least amount of effort for the maximum reward, the opposite of what we need in a discord team. Thereās no incentive for average mods, unless we incentivize them financially, which in turns makes the money saving aspect of that goal moot.
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Iām stating facts in the lower part of my comment, and I like this project, just not how itās run. We need change, and that change needs to start from the top to the bottom. We need a new leadership team, and that means replacing Dani, as he has demonstrated time and time again that he is not fit to be a leader. Anyone can see that just by looking at other crypto CEOs or leaders that are there for their communities. Look at Safemoonās CEO and how engaged he is with the community. The CEO, or leader, is the face of the company, and we depend on him to lead the project to success. Dani has broken that trust with the community. Just compare John Karony with Dani. There is a big difference. We need a leader that embraces our dao and community. Dani has shown he is incapable of being a leader. Leaders are demonstrated in the most difficult situations and lead by example.We need a leader that leads by example, and if Daniel is really the leader you think he is, he should step down and let someone else lead this project. The last point to add to this point is to look at how Daniel leads by example and what message he gives by his lack of communication.
Second point, letās not compare apples with oranges. Mods are great for managing a Discord community, but thatās it. Why are we going to have an inexperienced mod team do what a marketing team is an expert at? We need a marketing team, as they are the professionals. Look at any big crypto project. They hire a marketing team to manage communications. To the point of keeping this in the family business, it gets ugly when family is involved. The same idea applies here.Why go through the experiment of hiring mods when you can get a professional team that does this for a living? Change is good. Every company has gone through a cleanup from top to bottom. Poor leadership has gotten us to this point. We are not going to magically turn this around with these mods or Dani. To the point that outsourcing might be more expensive, I am okay with paying more for a professional marketing team because I know the value they will bring to this project. To this point, I am 100% on board with paying 25K to a marketing firm as I know this will benefit the dao more than having an inexperienced mod try to step into an area they are not expert in. To the point of how this new team will benefit the dao and the community, they will bring stable communication and will hold the leadership of this dao to be up to the standard of the clients they work with. A marketing team would bring in years of experience that adds instant value and build a brand, something this daoās mods and leadership have failed to do. Change is not always easy, but it is necessary for this dao to be successful. Iām okay with paying the mods a more reduced amount, but letās not have them step into areas they are not experts in. A marketing firm can be hired to manage communications, and the mod team can be hired part-time on a budget of 5k a month that can be distributed equally. If not, we can get mod volunteers in the community that would be happy to do it for free.
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Then change the proposal. Letās get the experts to take care of the communication and help instate some hope in this project. Mods are great, but letās not have them step into an area they are not experts in. We donāt need more expierments here. 
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Iām not going to debate you on comparing Dani and other CEOās. The circumstances are extremely different at this time, Dani is not trying to totally be the Defacto leader of this organization. Heās working right now to establish some structure within the organization, like a New treasury manager. I also canāt really debate you that communication has often been lacking. Thatās true. But we have been and will continue to be extremely successful with Daniās help. To act like he is insignificant and the cause of all our problems is a farce, and ignoring all the benefits we have also received from his guidance and actions. Iām not calling him a saint, but at this time, I am satisfied with the progress being made to bring More Structure to this organization, with additional leadership and better communication.
Maybe Iāll be completely wrong about the idea that we can have a marketing machine maintained by the community itself, but Iāll be happy to eat my shorts when I am shown wrong. I am excited to put in much effort to get that started, itās difficult to advertise things we have no firm knowledge is even happening though. We kinda have a couple things to sort out before we start trying to attract too many eyes in our direction. Iād hate to have too many more people yelling āwen rebuildā. Also, as someone who has literally grown up in the film and marketing industry, I can assure you $25k a month wonāt get you much from anyone worth their salt.
This really brings me to my main objection with your stance; Can you do what your asking for?
Itās easy to yell āchange it all and burn it downā, but itās a completely different kind of monster all together to actually find those new leaders and hire that new staff, to sort out who would be best, what we want from them, how much everybody feels comfortable paying them. Letās say we fire Dani today and start fresh, what next? If you truly believe you know the best way other than this, I legitimately Beg of you to post a proposal so we can get to work on that. Why would I want to sit here following a path I think is less effective if you present one to me that is better? That would be insane of me, literally.
Glad you asked let me construct a proposal. Give me 24 hours and I would gladly present that to you.
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I think many in the community have had frustrations about how the project has been managed over the last few months. That said, the mods are legitimately trying to bring about positive change. Something @NalX may want to consider including in the upcoming WIP is any professional experience the mod team is willing to share.
Thatās definitely a stretch. A cleanup to this degree has a high risk of failure. Iāve worked for several multinationals and thereās only so much organizational change management that can take place at any given time. Of course crypto is quite a different ecosystem, but there are even fewer regulations and safeguards in place to protect investors.
I have a hard time understanding how removing the last founder of Wonderland as well as our active, knowledgeable Discord mod team would result in a positive outcome for us. Without digging into hypotheticals, I feel that this would be among the most harmful things we could do to our investment and would be against the best interests of the DAO.
Historically, there has been some momentum to bring on a marketing specialist/āhead of marketingā/marketing firm to Wonderland (there were a few forum posts about this a couple of months ago). I absolutely agree that some professionals in this area can be worth their weight in gold - but we have to solve the systemic problems of internal communication before we can capitalize on the value they could bring to WL.
Dani is a visionary and a builder. Heās stated in a few separate situations that heās not great at communication or management. From my perspective, all he really needs is a Chief of Staff or Chief Operating Officer to take ownership of the daily operations, manage personnel, execute his vision, and play the project manager role whenever necessary. This addition would solve the majority of the issues visible to the community today.
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